tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post6213242850060838332..comments2012-11-13T00:23:20.696-08:00Comments on UA Defender: The Jacob Miller / Evan Lisull affairEvelyn B. Hallhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11191598688388288455noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-7819508597599461962009-10-05T23:17:58.635-07:002009-10-05T23:17:58.635-07:00Fantastic. A wise decision by our leadership and ...Fantastic. A wise decision by our leadership and I thank them for it.<br /><br />To those of you who stood up publicly and privately...well done also.<br /><br />And thanks to Evan and Jacob for their time, hard work, and for the week or so of worry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-33395426301756354012009-10-05T16:42:33.807-07:002009-10-05T16:42:33.807-07:00Desertlamp and chalkisspeech are reporting that al...Desertlamp and chalkisspeech are reporting that all remaining administrative charges against Evan Lisull will be dropped. No news of Jacob Miller yet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-85200492820205365692009-10-04T07:44:15.717-07:002009-10-04T07:44:15.717-07:00Or even ANY of the Evelyns - I'm another who d...Or even ANY of the Evelyns - I'm another who does not share Lynn Nadel's view that this is a minor issue. It is not a minor issue. Nor do I support president Shelton's "compromise" solution - sending the "offenders" up to defend themselves against charges of Code of Conduct violations. <br />Violations? It was Jacob's and Evan's rights that were violated. And with them, the rights of all of us. And all the lofty statements about the "essential core of the University" are only pious platitudes if faculty only fight back when OUR rights to be heard are ignored or repressed, but turn a blind eye when our students' rights are trampled. Sure, let's give the president a "pass" on this one, and the "benefit of the doubt" because in his heart he really does honor, cherish, and celebrate freedom of speech.<br />Except sometimes.<br />Fortunately, Evan Lisull, whom we respect and whom we've come to think of as a colleague (his blog, the "Arizona Desert Lamp" is infinitely more interesting than ours), is marvelously articulate, informed and connected. Which is not to say "he can take care of himself;" he needs and deserves our strongest support. <br />So do yourself a favor: read what Evan himself says about how it feels to be treated like a criminal for doing what we taught him to do - use your head, think critically, be a good citizen, think about others, believe in justice, believe in making a difference, have the courage of your convictions, and so forth. You know, it's funny. People do brave things and those around them say they're criminals. Then when they're vindicated History calls them heroes. <br />Here's Evan's latest: http://desertlamp.com/2009/09/29/dark-lining-on-a-silver-cloud-the-problems-with-a-code-of-conduct-hearing/#commentsEvelyn B. Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11191598688388288455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-51793085891627804802009-10-02T13:12:39.841-07:002009-10-02T13:12:39.841-07:00Interested parties are welcome to pick up the conv...Interested parties are welcome to pick up the conversation again here also. We encourage an in depth discussion of the administration's decision to make this an internal, but likely still punitive matter. We appreciate Dr. Nadel's position on the matter, but his position is not necessarily that of all the Evelyns.Evelyn B. Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11191598688388288455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-67877853030442837312009-10-02T12:17:38.193-07:002009-10-02T12:17:38.193-07:00The faculty over at ChalkisSpeech have just posted...The faculty over at ChalkisSpeech have just posted an open letter to Pres. Shelton regarding Jacob Miller and Evan Lisull and his decision to hand disciplinary authority over to the Dean of Students, which we feel still constitutes a punitive response to student expression. Those who wish to continue discussing this matter can feel free to do so there.<br /><br />http://chalkisspeech.blogspot.com/Chalkingbackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09432504580096242187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-46544730036196190762009-09-30T11:27:40.591-07:002009-09-30T11:27:40.591-07:00To Anon 9:11 -- no need to apologize for the gende...To Anon 9:11 -- no need to apologize for the gender mistake. It's been happening for 60+ years and mostly works to my benefit. <br /><br />I am going to ask to be allowed to "cash in" some chips -- and request that the discussion of the chalk incident be dropped. I am hoping you will be willing to trust me when I say there was no pressure put on from significantly higher sources in this incident. Those at the top are willing to take the blame, which I respect, but they should not beaten up any more on this one. <br /><br />I say this also because I just heard this morning that a young UA police office died accidentally in San Diego within the past day or so, while scuba diving. Young, just married, with a child.<br /><br />I think someone made some mistakes concerning chalk. There was in my view no conspiracy, and need to further expose those mistakes. Lets move on to more important matters, remembering at every moment how precious life is and what really counts.<br /><br />Lynn NadelLynn Nadelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-3689628081998607922009-09-30T06:16:03.672-07:002009-09-30T06:16:03.672-07:00With all due respect, none of us thinks that the P...With all due respect, none of us thinks that the President and Provost has to be everywhere, but this incident shows a lack of judgement. The right move would have been to act quickly, drop the charges, and quickly state publicly that the Tower greatly values free speech...and then issue a clarification of what the rules are and why they are in force.<br /><br />This should have been done on Friday. Instead, the conflict was allowed to spiral...and it got away from them.<br /><br />The University is now more delicate than it has been before. President Shelton has done a great job of enlisting student support. This is definitely a time when you don't want to lose that support.<br /><br />I would really like to know who called from the Tower, as has been suggest, and why. I would also like to know why there was a period of hours that went by for the police to go to the rally, wait for the student, and track them down.<br /><br />This appears to be much much more than an officer seeing activity and then making a decision whether to enforce the law or not. The officer was directed...and enough pressure was put on, it appears, for them to pursue this hours later.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-73052912558233102122009-09-29T21:11:26.543-07:002009-09-29T21:11:26.543-07:00Lynn,
I apologize for sexist assumptions. I had n...Lynn,<br /><br />I apologize for sexist assumptions. I had not realized that I had inadvertently used a gendered term.<br /><br />Also I in no way meant that your tone has been disrespectful. On the contrary, that remark was meant for some of the other "bloggers." I felt that sometimes their tone/comments towards some of your observations were a bit harsh. I just wanted to remind everyone that we need to respect dissent. That includes dissent towards this blog, or our perspective.<br /><br />Again, my sincerest apologies for inadvertently referring to you as female. I think your comments have been insightful and polite.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-76260581532229082212009-09-29T19:53:37.612-07:002009-09-29T19:53:37.612-07:00Thanks for this last post by Anon 5:59. If I soun...Thanks for this last post by Anon 5:59. If I sounded at all disrespectful I am sorry. I was, as usual, trying to make my points emphatically. I agree it could have been handled better, and that the folks at the top are ultimately responsible for everything that happens at the UA. But that's a pretty heavy load isn't it. That means they are also responsible to the Regents if one of us makes some kind of inflammatory statement, and so on. <br /><br />By the way, I'm male not female, just for the record. <br /><br />Lynn NadelLynn Nadelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-83325429701438675272009-09-29T17:59:04.191-07:002009-09-29T17:59:04.191-07:00I actually would like to thank Lynn for providing ...I actually would like to thank Lynn for providing this blog with a counter perspective. I think the point she raises, that this is not Mexico 1968, or that this controversy may become a distraction is a valid one to a certain extent. Some may become so focused on issues of free speech that they may disassociate the arrests as effects from an administration and a climate that “seems” to take offense to public statements that disagree with the status quo. While clearly these events are not equitable to those tragedies in Kent State or Mexico or any other institutional moment where the presence of the law was marked in hypervisible ways, the point of this blog and others that we are trying to prevent and ensure that those types of incidents, and that type of hostile climate does not become part of our institution. <br /><br />Again, I have tremendous respect for you Lynn, and I appreciate the perspective you bring, but Im not sure if the line between “graffiti” and “expression” are as demarcated as you make them out to me. I know for a fact, that the sidewalks of this university have been chalked up before, and I can also tell you for a fact that other institutions, top research universities with higher and more “prestigious” rankings,have sidewalks that occasionally have chalked writings or images. I have yet to hear of arrests at other locations or previous arrests at this campus. If our response as faculty has appeared dramatic, please understand that our response only matches what some of us feel was a dramatic response to an innocuous form of protest. This could have been so easily resolved if UofA administration dropped the charges, and promised not to further penalize these students. And although I also understand your point that none of us can definitively “prove” that the arrests or this fiasco is directly linked to the President and Provost, they have the final say in most affairs. If not them, then who is responsible? They either condone or reprimand the people that work in their behalf, and in that respect, they are directly related to this event.<br />I hope my brief comments may answer some of your questions, the one thing I would like to stress to this cyberspace community is that we should keep our tone cordial and respectful, we cannot complain of a form of pseudo “fascism” and then be hostile to others that do not agree with our perspective. Let me stress, I am not saying that currently we are being hostile to anyone, I am just saying, lets keep our tone respectful and inviting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-71461771084748651342009-09-29T11:11:26.489-07:002009-09-29T11:11:26.489-07:00Anonymous said...
Lynn,
This IS an impor...Anonymous said...<br /><br /> Lynn,<br /><br /> This IS an important battle to fight. It is absolutely revolting that in an editorial to the Star, Shelton and Hay appealed to students, faculty and staff to protest publicly rather than in dark corners and on anonymous blogs. The students came out publicly, as they were asked to do, protested the budget cuts and yes, dared to question UA leadership. And for that they were arrested with no proof that they were the ones who wrote on vertical surfaces. Now Evan's and Miller's punishments are going to be taken care of quietly so they can't become the newest martyrs on campus.<br /><br /> I'm happy you are engaging in dialogue with all parties Lynn, I really am. But as far as S/H being exhausted by their jobs... they made their beds, let them lie in them. I'm sick to death of their intimidation, combined with false sympathy to the faculty and staff on campus. They've had plenty of opportunities to set things right, to save jobs, to assist departments using creative solutions. They ignored them all in favor of autocratic rule.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-74101754758897687832009-09-29T08:44:28.150-07:002009-09-29T08:44:28.150-07:00Lynn,
This might be source of the confusion:
neith...Lynn,<br />This might be source of the confusion:<br />neither of the students chalked up a building. they were arrested as they were chalking up the pavement, and that's the issue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-28197311425546741372009-09-29T08:42:33.227-07:002009-09-29T08:42:33.227-07:00Thank you, Lynn.Thank you, Lynn.Rosalind Garcianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-23056657909083026532009-09-29T08:07:39.346-07:002009-09-29T08:07:39.346-07:00Rosalind,
As soon as I posted that message I real...Rosalind,<br /><br />As soon as I posted that message I realized that I had "forgotten" the situation with Juan, who I consider a friend. I apologize, to you, your family and Juan.<br /><br />Separately to Anon (10:24) on my silence on the Jacob Miller affair --<br />I was on the east coast when this all happened and did not want to talk about something I had little knowledge of in detail. I still don't know exactly what happened. <br /><br />What I do know is that a distinction was drawn between chalking the sidewalk (permitted) and chalking vertical surfaces (not permitted). This seems a technical point but its important because it shows that completely unfettered freedom of speech is NOT the issue here, and to claim that it is is disingenuous. I repeat that I am not in favor of permitting students or anyone else to mark up the walls of our buildings. And I wager that the vast majority of my colleagues at the UA, scientists and non-scientists like, would agree with me on that. There are plenty of horizontal surfaces to freely express one's thoughts. This whole issue is being built up into something way out of proportion to its meaning, and if you and others wish to make this the centerpiece of your fight with the administration and its policies you are making a major tactical mistake. Do you imagine that the public or any other external constituency whose support we need if we are to solve our real problems, will stand with you in support of the right of students to chalk up our buildings in the exercise of free speech. I enjoyed the 60s as much as anyone, but this is not Paris, or San Francisco or Mexico City or Prague in 1968. Let's be smart about the battles we choose to fight.<br /><br />Lynn NadelLynn Nadelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-16791748088977785632009-09-29T06:55:27.253-07:002009-09-29T06:55:27.253-07:00Dr. Nadel,
My name is Rosalind Garcia and I am mar...Dr. Nadel,<br />My name is Rosalind Garcia and I am married to Juan Garcia. I think my family would disagree with your assertion that you don't know anyone who has been threatened, intimidated or shunned by the President for disagreeing.Rosalind Garcianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-54637045282625656102009-09-28T22:24:12.229-07:002009-09-28T22:24:12.229-07:00Dr. Nadel, the entire time this post has been open...Dr. Nadel, the entire time this post has been open, you had not one thing to say about this issue. So of course it is only when Shelton has the students' charges dropped (substituted actually), and after everyone's done their part to help secure that, you come in and tell us to calm down? That this is not about free speech? That you don't want graffiti on buildings? Graffiti, really? Because these arrests, and our discussions, have absolutely nothing to do with graffiti, nor with buildings, but with chalk, a writing instrument, pavement, and a student's consitutionally protected right to symbolic expression. So technically, its all about free speech. But not graffiti.<br /><br />Let us not fool ourselves, these arrests were not mistakes by the UAPD, these dogs were released at a very specific time and with a particular agenda. And when incidents like this happen, when students and their freedom of speech are at stake on a university campus, it should become the ONLY thing that matters, because there's nothing left of a university when they're gone. Maybe these are things of value only to the non-scientists among us, and that it was only non-scientists that saw it their social and intellectual responsibility to challenge the students arrests, but these non-scientists also know from graffiti.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-57639264628195643592009-09-28T21:14:37.210-07:002009-09-28T21:14:37.210-07:00Let's agree to disagree on this one. I was n...Let's agree to disagree on this one. I was not here when the actual events transpired. But then again neither were the President and Provost. From what I have been able to gather (which may be wrong or incomplete) we really don't know who authorized the arrests in the first place. Please correct me if I'm wrong -- I've been trying to get real information on this since returning Saturday night.<br /><br />I spent time with the President and Provost today. They are exhausted, from the ABOR meeting, from reacting to, and trying to frame a response to, the poll, and from doing their jobs. It's possible the President could have "fixed" this a bit sooner, but I really don't see it as proof of autocracy. I see it as just an incident gone awry. I'm not big on conspiracy theories -- sometimes things just go wrong, with no one specifically acting the devil's part.<br /><br />Again, I would be happy to admit I'm wrong upon hearing specific details of who did what, or said what, and when. But until then I'm inclined to give them a pass on this one. <br /><br />And I for one have never been the target of "threats and intimidation", nor have I heard of anyone making such a claim about President Shelton - again, please correct me if I'm wrong. Until then, I would urge more careful use of language. <br /><br />I might add that though I have been playing a visible role in the blog, and participated in creating the poll, I have not been threatened, intimidated, or shunned by the President and Provost. I have not been excluded from President's Cabinet, nor relieved of my position as Chair of SPBAC, which by the way the President has the right to do. These facts about behavior also mean something.<br /><br />I'm just trying to stay honest and candid, in all directions. Which means I'm going to disagree with you and other bloggers as readily as I do with the President and Provost, if I think you, or they, are going off course.<br /><br />Lynn NadelLynn Nadelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-18063519227845624602009-09-28T20:16:55.707-07:002009-09-28T20:16:55.707-07:00Lynn, How can you suggest that the Jacob/Evan inci...Lynn, How can you suggest that the Jacob/Evan incident is not part of the issues we are facing. The incident is another example of this administration's autocratic style. They use threats and intimidation to keep faculty and other "underlings" in line and now they've extended their methods to students. We should be outraged and we clearly see this is part of the bigger picture. Why don't you?Evelyn B. Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11191598688388288455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-40623959689713359782009-09-28T20:09:30.522-07:002009-09-28T20:09:30.522-07:00This is not a distraction from the real issues bei...This is not a distraction from the real issues being discussed here. It is an evidence how the current administration handles disagreement. They have had the option to send the two students to Dean of Students Office in the first place. But they chose to call UAPD. Moreover, the second student only did sidewalk drawing. And sidewalk drawing or even graffiti on the walls are not first time in this campus. Did anyone get arrested?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-12644815056143418112009-09-28T19:18:38.183-07:002009-09-28T19:18:38.183-07:00Exactly what part of the Student Code of Conduct i...Exactly what part of the Student Code of Conduct is at issue? This unfortunate document has very strange overlaps with Arizona law in several critical places.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-7272640521717005602009-09-28T19:12:16.873-07:002009-09-28T19:12:16.873-07:00Don't make this into more than it is. As a fa...Don't make this into more than it is. As a faculty member I do not want students putting graffiti up the walls of buildings or structures, whatever they wish to say. Sidewalks are OK, buildings are not. This is not about freedom of speech, although it was handled badly at the start (when the President was at the ABOR meeting). Can people please calm down here and focus on what really matters.<br /><br />This is a distraction from the real issues we are facing. We need to be smarter than that.<br /><br />Lynn NadelLynn Nadelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-78814728004774784852009-09-28T17:44:57.333-07:002009-09-28T17:44:57.333-07:00Hell no...not good enough. They want to take care ...Hell no...not good enough. They want to take care of it "in house" like all things. Instead of having over 300 students signed up on Facebook pledged to make a massive scene at the courthouse when the case came up.<br /><br />Also, guess they weren't ready for a whole damned lot of chalk tomorrow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-28484553997428064232009-09-28T16:59:41.131-07:002009-09-28T16:59:41.131-07:00Last post is a little misleading. Star reports th...Last post is a little misleading. Star reports that though the charges will be dropped both students will be reported to Dean of Students Office under a code of conduct violation. This is still a punishment, and does not resolve the issue in the least. Speech acts will now be punished internally. Not good enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-9156333827472866372009-09-28T16:06:41.159-07:002009-09-28T16:06:41.159-07:00Evan and Jacob have just had to charges dropped by...Evan and Jacob have just had to charges dropped by Shelton. Heard it on NPR just now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8178103807273064745.post-22552538343916616302009-09-28T15:34:55.983-07:002009-09-28T15:34:55.983-07:00Maybe Rachel Maddow will pick up this story and ru...Maybe Rachel Maddow will pick up this story and run with it. The Chalking Capers, that is.<br />This is shameful.<br />I'm an alum, a donor to my major department, and an employee (just a lowly staff member, not faculty). The whole thing is shameful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com